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	<title>Comments on: Taxing the top 1%</title>
	<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/</link>
	<description>Mutual Funds, Investing, Retirement, Economy, Personal Finance</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 01:46:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kurt Brouwer</title>
		<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3253</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Brouwer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3253</guid>
		<description>Dave--I'm not surprised that you would prefer to look at total taxes.  Mark does too. The problem is that income taxes pay the cost of government.  Payroll taxes go to Social Security and Medicare and those who pay into those two programs get significant benefits that is, retirement income and medical care.  Payroll taxes bring a benefit to those who pay them, but they do not pay for the cost of running the Federal or state governments. 

Income taxes -- both individual and corporate -- are the main source of government revenues. 

So I will reiterate my point, which is that the top 1% are paying an enormous percentage of the cost of running our government.  Many citizens pay little or nothing and I do not believe that is healthy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave&#8211;I&#8217;m not surprised that you would prefer to look at total taxes.  Mark does too. The problem is that income taxes pay the cost of government.  Payroll taxes go to Social Security and Medicare and those who pay into those two programs get significant benefits that is, retirement income and medical care.  Payroll taxes bring a benefit to those who pay them, but they do not pay for the cost of running the Federal or state governments. </p>
<p>Income taxes &#8212; both individual and corporate &#8212; are the main source of government revenues. </p>
<p>So I will reiterate my point, which is that the top 1% are paying an enormous percentage of the cost of running our government.  Many citizens pay little or nothing and I do not believe that is healthy.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3252</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3252</guid>
		<description>Fair enough, thanks.  

I do have to add that I prefer looking at the total federal tax burden and not just personal income taxes -- it gives a more accurate look at the burden of each income group. 

Viewed this way, the federal tax burden of the top 1% drops to 28.3% (in table 1)

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10068/effective_tax_rates_2006.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough, thanks.  </p>
<p>I do have to add that I prefer looking at the total federal tax burden and not just personal income taxes &#8212; it gives a more accurate look at the burden of each income group. </p>
<p>Viewed this way, the federal tax burden of the top 1% drops to 28.3% (in table 1)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10068/effective_tax_rates_2006.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10068/effective_tax_rates_2006.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kurt Brouwer</title>
		<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3251</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Brouwer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3251</guid>
		<description>Dave:  In 2007, the top 1% earned 22.83% of the income and they paid 40.42% of income taxes.  That was referenced in the comments above with a slightly different number for 2008.  The top 1% pay roughly twice as much in income taxes as the percentage of income they earn.  These &lt;a href="http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/250.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;tables&lt;/a&gt; spell it out.

Incidentally, my primary concern is not so much the amount or the rate, but rather that so much of our tax revenues are dependent on a very small base of people.  It's unwise and bad for our system of governance in my opinion.  Also, it makes tax revenues much more volatile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave:  In 2007, the top 1% earned 22.83% of the income and they paid 40.42% of income taxes.  That was referenced in the comments above with a slightly different number for 2008.  The top 1% pay roughly twice as much in income taxes as the percentage of income they earn.  These <a href="http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/250.html" rel="nofollow">tables</a> spell it out.</p>
<p>Incidentally, my primary concern is not so much the amount or the rate, but rather that so much of our tax revenues are dependent on a very small base of people.  It&#8217;s unwise and bad for our system of governance in my opinion.  Also, it makes tax revenues much more volatile.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3250</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 16:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3250</guid>
		<description>Kurt -  

So what percent of the *income* do the top 1% of earners make?   That is the crucial question in this discussion, and you only address it long enough to disimiss.

If it's also at 40%, then what's the problem?  What if it's far below or above 40%?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kurt -  </p>
<p>So what percent of the *income* do the top 1% of earners make?   That is the crucial question in this discussion, and you only address it long enough to disimiss.</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s also at 40%, then what&#8217;s the problem?  What if it&#8217;s far below or above 40%?</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt Brouwer</title>
		<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3243</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Brouwer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3243</guid>
		<description>I don't get it.  How does health insurance prevent the loss of life or limb? For the most part, Americans want health insurance to protect themselves against a catastrophic loss such as major expenses for a bad accident or cancer.  That is precisely the same purpose that other types of insurance fulfill.  Life insurance pays off after the loss of a breadwinner. 

The big difference is that the lack of health insurance does not mean that someone gets no healthcare.  However, if your life insurance policy did not pay off, that would be it.  There is no alternative to getting that check.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t get it.  How does health insurance prevent the loss of life or limb? For the most part, Americans want health insurance to protect themselves against a catastrophic loss such as major expenses for a bad accident or cancer.  That is precisely the same purpose that other types of insurance fulfill.  Life insurance pays off after the loss of a breadwinner. </p>
<p>The big difference is that the lack of health insurance does not mean that someone gets no healthcare.  However, if your life insurance policy did not pay off, that would be it.  There is no alternative to getting that check.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark A. Sadowski</title>
		<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3242</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark A. Sadowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 18:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3242</guid>
		<description>Kurt,
Well, then let me explain the difference to you. The other forms of insurance pay out after a loss. Health insurance promises to pay out before there is a loss (of life or limb). Emergency rooms and community health clinics are not a substitute for health insurance. By the time you end up there it is usually too late.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kurt,<br />
Well, then let me explain the difference to you. The other forms of insurance pay out after a loss. Health insurance promises to pay out before there is a loss (of life or limb). Emergency rooms and community health clinics are not a substitute for health insurance. By the time you end up there it is usually too late.</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt Brouwer</title>
		<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3236</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Brouwer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 20:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3236</guid>
		<description>No I wouldn't agree that the stakes are higher with health insurance than with life insurance or homeowners insurance, car insurance or liability insurance.  

If the main breadwinner dies and has no life insurance, that is a huge hit for that family.  If someone's car gets wrecked and they have no insurance, then the cost is borne by that family. 

Whereas, if a family does not have health insurance, they still have healthcare at the emergency room, community health clinic and so on. 

So, no I do not agree with that at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No I wouldn&#8217;t agree that the stakes are higher with health insurance than with life insurance or homeowners insurance, car insurance or liability insurance.  </p>
<p>If the main breadwinner dies and has no life insurance, that is a huge hit for that family.  If someone&#8217;s car gets wrecked and they have no insurance, then the cost is borne by that family. </p>
<p>Whereas, if a family does not have health insurance, they still have healthcare at the emergency room, community health clinic and so on. </p>
<p>So, no I do not agree with that at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark A. Sadowski</title>
		<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3234</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark A. Sadowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 18:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3234</guid>
		<description>Kurt,
All good points. (I'm a little leery of the Cuban data myself but Becker's the one pushing the study.) But I didn't say a private market for health insurance isn't impossible, only that laissez faire economics wouldn't work there. And with health insurance, the stakes are a little higher than with other forms of insurance, wouldn't you agree?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kurt,<br />
All good points. (I&#8217;m a little leery of the Cuban data myself but Becker&#8217;s the one pushing the study.) But I didn&#8217;t say a private market for health insurance isn&#8217;t impossible, only that laissez faire economics wouldn&#8217;t work there. And with health insurance, the stakes are a little higher than with other forms of insurance, wouldn&#8217;t you agree?</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt Brouwer</title>
		<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3233</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Brouwer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3233</guid>
		<description>Mark--I had to laugh when I read your comments about Cuba's system.  Not only is no private healthcare allowed, there is no freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, no free press and so on.  It is a dictatorship so it controls all information in and out.  Therefore, it controls all statistical input and output. I find it shockingly naive that people still give credence to Cuban statistics as it is well known that dictatorships lie about almost everything. 

Also, life expectancy at birth statistics are not calculated the same around the world.  In the U.S. we count all births, even premature ones.  Other countries do not.  I know you know this, so suggesting we don't have a good record on this is very unfair.  And, our cancer survival rates are significantly higher than most other countries over many types of cancers, not to mention the fact that most health innovations and pharmaceuticals come from the U.S.  Finally, if moral hazard and so on are impossible in a free market for health insurance, who don't the same factors make life insurance, car insurance, liability insurance, homeowners insurances and so on, unfeasible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark&#8211;I had to laugh when I read your comments about Cuba&#8217;s system.  Not only is no private healthcare allowed, there is no freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, no free press and so on.  It is a dictatorship so it controls all information in and out.  Therefore, it controls all statistical input and output. I find it shockingly naive that people still give credence to Cuban statistics as it is well known that dictatorships lie about almost everything. </p>
<p>Also, life expectancy at birth statistics are not calculated the same around the world.  In the U.S. we count all births, even premature ones.  Other countries do not.  I know you know this, so suggesting we don&#8217;t have a good record on this is very unfair.  And, our cancer survival rates are significantly higher than most other countries over many types of cancers, not to mention the fact that most health innovations and pharmaceuticals come from the U.S.  Finally, if moral hazard and so on are impossible in a free market for health insurance, who don&#8217;t the same factors make life insurance, car insurance, liability insurance, homeowners insurances and so on, unfeasible?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark A. Sadowski</title>
		<link>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3231</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark A. Sadowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 01:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.fundmasteryblog.com/2009/07/30/taxing-the-top-1/#comment-3231</guid>
		<description>gordzilla,
This is completely off topic of course but I think the main implication of the medical bankruptcy research on Canada as compared to the US is that universal health care reduces the medical bankruptcy rate. 

I personally don't think Canada's health care system is superlative but one is always free to buy supplementary private health insurance coverage there. When one looks at other universal health care systems there is an amazing variety. The UK of course has a more or less entirely socialized system but you are always free to purchase supplementary health insurance. France has national health insurance with optional supplementary health insurance (and short wait times) and some of the health care delivery system is socialized (and cancer survival rates are among the very best). (And some of the health care delivery system is in the US is also socialized. For example the VHA is entirely socialized.) The Netherlands has the same as France but you have the option of opting out of the national health insurance system (as one third of the population does). Switzerland has a completely private health insurance system, but it is nevertheless essentially universal, and some of the health care delivery system is socialized. Cuba is of course entirely socialized (and no private health insurance or health care is permitted). (And, interestingly, Cuba has the highest age adjusted cancer survival rates in the the world, and that is a measure of quality widely advocated by Republican leaning economists like Gary Becker.) I personally have no firm conviction on which is the best model but I am absolutely convinced that, thanks to issues of moral hazard and adverse selection, laissez-faire economics will not work with the health insurance market and, furthermore, thanks to positive externalities, that universal health care is a socially and economically desirable goal. I do not, on the other hand, believe that government owned and operated health care delivery is optimal.

P.S. And, interestingly, although the US has a rather poor record on life expectancy at birth, it has one of the highest life expectancies at age 65, when our single payer Medicare system (with short wait times) kicks in. (And to be clear, single payer means socialized health insurance, but not health care delivery.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gordzilla,<br />
This is completely off topic of course but I think the main implication of the medical bankruptcy research on Canada as compared to the US is that universal health care reduces the medical bankruptcy rate. </p>
<p>I personally don&#8217;t think Canada&#8217;s health care system is superlative but one is always free to buy supplementary private health insurance coverage there. When one looks at other universal health care systems there is an amazing variety. The UK of course has a more or less entirely socialized system but you are always free to purchase supplementary health insurance. France has national health insurance with optional supplementary health insurance (and short wait times) and some of the health care delivery system is socialized (and cancer survival rates are among the very best). (And some of the health care delivery system is in the US is also socialized. For example the VHA is entirely socialized.) The Netherlands has the same as France but you have the option of opting out of the national health insurance system (as one third of the population does). Switzerland has a completely private health insurance system, but it is nevertheless essentially universal, and some of the health care delivery system is socialized. Cuba is of course entirely socialized (and no private health insurance or health care is permitted). (And, interestingly, Cuba has the highest age adjusted cancer survival rates in the the world, and that is a measure of quality widely advocated by Republican leaning economists like Gary Becker.) I personally have no firm conviction on which is the best model but I am absolutely convinced that, thanks to issues of moral hazard and adverse selection, laissez-faire economics will not work with the health insurance market and, furthermore, thanks to positive externalities, that universal health care is a socially and economically desirable goal. I do not, on the other hand, believe that government owned and operated health care delivery is optimal.</p>
<p>P.S. And, interestingly, although the US has a rather poor record on life expectancy at birth, it has one of the highest life expectancies at age 65, when our single payer Medicare system (with short wait times) kicks in. (And to be clear, single payer means socialized health insurance, but not health care delivery.)</p>
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